I could see myself running a meuhem pack, or a couple cults, or both even. I like Helcult better personally. Gives the brute a good save provided the attack does not have higher elevation because Cultists kind of blow at obscuring a big target , and makes Cultists Fearless. The Mayhem pack sounds alright, especially automatically getting crazed every turn, but deep striking is still dangerous and they can't assault the turn they do.
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The whole Hull Points thing really makes me hate the Helbrute. What could be such a beast in close combat really just takes a massive beating from glancing hits.
For 25 points more, you can have the maulerfiend which does the close combat part SO much better. Dataslates for Helbrutes? I can't see this going well. Maulerfiends also move 12 inches per turn and ignore difficult terrain! So good if you want a CC walker. Well, formations of hellbrutes can be cool, generally dataslate formations cost some points and add extra powers.
Who knows maybe a movement bonus or a save while hte formation is intact? Atleast if they only take one, or no FOC slots. Which ones have had a formation cost? I haven't seen any that have any cost above and beyond the the normal cost for the units in the formation? There are usually minimum requirements, or mandatory numbers, like the Tau Firebase Cadre, where you must take 2 units of 3 Broadsides and 1 Riptide.
That's what I interpreted him to mean. Would be incredibly awesome if the Helbrutes in the formation were scoring units. They'd fly off the shelves, and all the CSM whiners would suddenly love them. That's what I'd do if I were Tom Kirby. But all dreads are in a bad spot right now, they need to be cheaper with cheaper weapons. Most of the time you lose a dread in one to two turns because they are easy targets that are based off of data from the older editions.
I would love to see predators being close to cost effective that you might have a hard time picking what you wanted to take vs SM going thunder fire cannons and CSM picking havocs, Oblits or Maulers. If 7th Edition does come out in a few months then hopefully it'll massively rewrite the vehicle rules to make them more survivable.
Vehicle damage would be based solely around Hull Points. But that's just me. If you had to pick what version did you like more 4th, 5th and I can guess you don't like 6th. I personally like 6th with the hull points over 5th but a number of the AV12, 13 and 14 vehicles cost to much in this system. But I'm with you we need a change in one way or another. I don't like the Vehicle Damage Table, period. It's annoying that Vehicles are the only unit in the game that can be crippled as it takes damage.
I'd prefer if Hull Points were treated as Wounds with no other effects and leave it at that. Penetrating Hit: 1 Hull Point of damage. And that's it. I'd also like to see vehicles gain the ability to fire all their guns at full BS while on the move.
It makes no sense that the heavy bolter gunner on a Leman Russ can't fire his gun accurately but the lascannon gunner can. It's ok. I'm sure all dreads will become super heavy walkers in 6. Oh god I hope not but I would not put bets on anything with GW right now except WFB keeping in the same trend of awesome price increases all around. I wish they could take vehicle equipment. If they'd just let us bolt on a dirgecaster, I'd be much more interested in running a helbrute.
I don't think it's unreasonable. If I was really wishlisting I'd like to have the option to take marks and have the remains of the marine inside possessed for the Daemonic Possession special rule and an alternate crazed table. Still looking forward to finding out what the formation rules are but doesn't sound like anything like what I'd like to see. So I have only played in sixth edition. How did the rules used to be so that they were better? Could you only destroy a vehicle with an explosion result on the table or something?
Hull points didn't exist. If you got glanced No big deal. I believe glance was just a shaken result. So glances need a 6 to wreck, which meant that they were largely ineffective. Also, that means that glancing could only kill a vehicle after it had been immobilized and lost all it's weapons.
Which could get really annoying. Hull points are just to small. I feel that doubling all hull points and keeping the mechanics the same would go a long way with all vehicles. Hull points could be fine, if vehicles had saves like MCs does.
But they are still at a disadvantage to the newer MCs like the Riptide and the Wraith Knight, who have high toughness and loads of saves. On top of that vehicles have the damage table, making it possible to get "instant Death" way to easily, Most anti tank weapons are AP1 or AP2, meaning if you pen you cause an explodes at 4 , 5 or 6, and the chance of getting a pen is already very high with things like the Melta rule or just high Strength weapons.
Monstrous Creatures on the other hand generally might not get their armor save from an anti tank weapon, but will most likely always have an invul save and due to being T6 or better it's impossible to instant kill them due to the "Double toughness" rule. So yeah vehicles have so many disadvantages with so few hull points and no saves, and rules that makes exploding a vehicle really simple, and killing it with bolter fire possible if you are positioned correctly.
Joshua In 4th Dreads and Predators put out a good amount of damage vs. Overall the points have not changed enough with the times and their damage output has stayed near the same with a few exceptions. The volume of fire that has been increasing in 5th and the major jump in 6th has not scaled with a number of units. Just an oversight by GW between all the armies, game systems and Tolkien stuff. Heck there was a time when an single assault cannon was scary. It sounds like it was a very different game.
I have noticed how east vehicles are to kill though. I started with tyranids so I didn't give a hoot about vehicles except that my flyrant with devourers ate them for breakfast. But now that I'm playing tau and have hammerheads and Devilfish I always wonder if they are going to be a liability or not. I don't think they ever really adjusted for the change to rapid fire. In 3rd, you got 1 shot at 24, 2 at 12, but ONLY if you didn't move.
If you moved, you got 1 shot at Rapid fire weapons have been getting better while the guys that carry them aren't getting more expensive to compensate. I was hoping for marks. I am not going to write it off yet as i need to know the formation rules, but if there are no marked gods i am pessimistic as of right now. I will reserve final judgment right now. In terms of dataslates, its clear that be'lakor spoiled us. That dataslate its amazing. Since it was first, it set the standard and it was a game changer.
No dataslates since that one have yet to be as good. For the points, Cypher is pretty good. True, he's no Be'Lakor, but he's also almost half the points, and doesn't take up an HQ slot.
I'm not optimistic. I don't think any of that is going to show up in this formation dataslate, so I don't really believe it's going to change the situation for them on the table.
I mean, if it does, then that's great, I've got two chaos dreads already and sure would love an excuse to get that new model, but I'm not going to be holding my breath.
What I'd love to see, and this is definitely wish listing, is for the Brutes in this rumored Formation to be Scoring units. Other than Chosen with Abaddon, Elites that are Scoring is pretty rare, and the ability to have a few more scoring units at your disposal is one of the things that makes Big Guns and The Scouring so interesting.
If they really wanted to sell a ton of these models and have people actually field them in games in significant numbers, they need to have some sort of benefit like I just described. That's what I'd do, anyway Since having Elites be Troops is kinda the "thing" with Crimson Slaughter, this is what I'm hoping for Elites as troops is a thing for chaos in general - see all the cult units in the parent book, or chosen if you field abby or run out of black legion.
I don't think it would salvage brutes, though. You have to survive the match for scoring to matter, and not-dying isn't exactly their forte. I'm sure we've all heard of them, that still doesn't mean those prices aren't obscene. You know what I want to do with the crappiest unit in the codex?
If they get good rules, you'll probably want to! And to be frank, aren't Warp Talons crappier than Helbrutes? And aren't Mutilators even crappier? Mutilators are less crappy then helbrutes, if fielded in single man squads with MoN as distractions. Warp talons are worse in general, though can be better if you play almost exclusively against power armored armies on boards with tons of LoS blocking terrain.
Possessed are worse than all of the above, though.
Confirmation: Dataslate Helbrutes and Contents
Each Helbrute holds a living Heretic Astartes within its plated metal chest -- a Chaos Space Marine driven over the edge of madness by the never-ending cycle of battle that defines the Long War. A Helbrute is piloted by a warrior who, like his Loyalist Dreadnought counterparts, has suffered extreme bodily damage in combat. The critically injured Heretic Astartes is then bound into an amniotic sarcophagus at the combat walker's heart, connected by cybernetic nervous system implants and a Mind Impulse Unit to the controls of the war machine. However, while Loyalist Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes consider it an honour to serve their Chapter for eternity as a Dreadnought, Chaos Space Marines consider such a fate to be little more than a living death -- a torturous, mocking punishment from the Ruinous Powers. They abhor the thought of such a miserable half-life locked away in a dank and imprisoning cybernetic womb, where they can no longer drink in the sights of battle with their own eyes or feel the kick of a Bolter in their own hands. For Chaos Space Marines, it would be better to die and find final release in the maelstrom of the Warp than to spend eternity locked in a hard, adamantium shell. As a result, most Helbrutes are completely psychotic, even before the Warp melds the metal of their hated prison with the flesh within.
A First Look: Helbrutes Dataslate